We're all Girls Here

The other night, an interesting discussion took place in my dorm room.  One of my roommates asked the others present if openly taking off her bra in our room would make us uncomfortable.  Living in an all-girl's house with very limited space, some levels of nakedness have to be accepted out of pure necessity, but we always manage to keep something on our bodies in the process.   

The common feeling in the room up to that point had been "We're all girls here, we don't care." However, looking around the room, we each realized: We may all be girls, but we are each our own person with limits on how far familiarity between the same sex can be stretched without it becoming inappropriate.

So there's something that isn't often discussed: modesty between people of the same sex.

Comments

[Anna S]

I know I wouldn't feel comfortable with that either!

[Meg]

I can't speak for every woman, but that wouldn't bother me in the slightest. I hardly ever wear a bra at home.

Now, if she started going around topless, that might make some women uncomfortable.

[Avery]

That's an interesting discussion topic. My first thought was, whether what you call "same-sex modesty" is really a function of modesty at all. Would we try to maintain some limits on our own state of undress in your described situation because we're truly modest? Or because we're dealing with issues of body image/self doubt/self esteem around other women?

A follow up question to that would be, should we modify our behavior based on whether our "same-sex modesty" is a function of one emotion or the other?

Personally, I think that our (collective, I'm no supermodel) desire to maintain limits on how much of our physical bodies we let others see - and other women see, particularly - may be more skewed towards the self-doubt side. I don't know about the rest of you, but the moments in my life where I've covered up for fear of everyone else in the room envying me and considering me a showoff, are few and far between. I wonder if my experiences are common, and I wonder whether we should accept that substitution of "modesty" for "self doubt."

Thanks.

[Anna]

I think it is modesty. And propriety. Not necessarily for reasons of being sexually discreet, but because there is something inherently good about modesty and respect and not flaunting your body everywhere.

At the same time, though, there is naturally going to be some ease and "immodesty" in a black-and-white sense, when you are around all females, especially those you live with and are close to. You simply don't have to be as guarded. And I think that's perfectly appropriate and fine.

[Annika]

I've lived in a women-only dorm for several years and I find that "modesty" varies primarily based on body image and personality. Shy people tend not to walk around the dorm in a towel or stark naked. Confident people do.

Some girls are not totally comfortable with others state of undress, but most of us are sensitive to how others on our halls feel, and try to make everyone feel comfortable by wearing more. I don't think there is any moral point to remaining clothed in a same-sex situation, but it is rude if it makes others uncomfortable. So, if everyone else is OK with it, go for it!

[Julie]

I don't think there's anything inherently immodest about nudity; it depends on the circumstance. When I was in Japan, I went to a public bath where everyone (though it was gender segregated) wandered around totally in the nude, enjoying soaking in the water and socializing. At first the idea of being naked in front of strangers freaked me out, but pretty soon I realized that everyone was being completely natural and unselfconscious about it, and then I felt normal, too. In Japan, that is just part of the culture, and you can see every age and body type represented.
In fact, in some cultures, women go topless all day, every day, and they are not being immodest, nor do the men consider this an excuse to harass them, because breasts just aren't sexualized in those cultures the way they are in ours.

[Denet]

Looks like we need to define our terms again: what is modesty? Is it merely avoiding sexual arousal, or is it something more, something related to privacy?

I hold that modesty has more to do with privacy, and that it is very possible to be immodest while not being sexually arousing in any way.

When I was twelve or thirteen, I was at a family member's house, full of other family members, all getting ready for a funeral. I found myself in a room with my close, beloved aunt, and yet wouldn't put my hose on with her in the room. There were parts of me I now considered private; they were not to be shared with anyone.

Later in highschool and college, I occasionally found myself having to change/get dressed in the same room with my best friend. However, we shared standards of modesty, so there was an unspoken arrangement that each on her side would turn her back to the center, dress, and wait to turn around when we could tell by sound that the other was done.

Needless to say, I was especially careful not to flaunt or show anything to guys.

Even while I knew the occasional doctor's visit was necessary, I never was really comfortable with the doctor shoving the stethoscope up the back of my shirt to listen to my lungs.

Then, a little over a year ago, I was married. After those years of strongly embedded sense of privacy, I had expected to have to fight my habits and feelings when it came time to be with my husband. Oddly, I had no inhibitions. I realized that this was the purpose of my privacy all those years. My entire body was for him, and him alone.

Parts of me are public-- my face, hands, etc, but the rest of me remains private.

[Sarah]

It doesn't bother me that women in the company of other women can be less guarded and worry less about how they look. However, it still depends on the people and the situation. I never go without a bra except when sleeping because of my "ample bosom." I don't want to subject people to that or make them uncomfortable. More importantly, it makes ME uncomfortable to not wear a bra. Another point is that it depends on who I'm with. I've been at sleepovers where a girl would take off a bra and it made me uncomfortable because we didn't all know each other very well. I felt like, "I just met you, give me a minute before you get that 'comfortable.'"

[Luthor Rex]

I thought in these kinds of situations girls would spontaniously make out??

Did... did MTV lie to me again?

"In fact, in some cultures, women go topless all day, every day, and they are not being immodest, nor do the men consider this an excuse to harass them, because breasts just aren't sexualized in those cultures the way they are in ours."

Context and culture do have a large sway on this kind of thing. The ancient statues of Venus are examples of feminine beauty, and yet most men don't get sexually arroused by them.

I have to wonder though... if some modern art people put on a show where various women (perhaps of various shapes and sizes) put on a show of women in poses and the states of un-dress the original Venus statues were, would it be viewed as sexual or as 'natural beauty'.

Men can look at a woman's body in various ways, and the Venus is a good example of female nudity being presented as beauty and not purely erotic. In this sense there is an element of 'awe' to the female form.

Wow... I'm way off topic...

[Bringing Up Daisy]

I happened across your blog recently. I am a 59 year old grandmother who is bringing up her 12 year old granddaughter.

I was thinking about "same sex modesty" the other day and how it seems to have changed from when I was in school. My granddaughter is taking a swimming class where all the girls shower together after the swim. From what she says it is all very open. I would not have been comfortable doing that as a child or young adult. In my gym class in high school showers with curtains were available but only a few took advantage of them. The rest just put on extra deodorant and got dressed with our backs to each other. We didn't wear our bras under our gowns or PJ's in college but we didn't shower together either. Something about being so comfortable in showering together bothers me. Is their seeming lack of modesty in this area caused by what most of the girls are seeing in the media? Could being so open with their bodies in that area cause them to be more comfortable in immodest clothing or does immodest clothing lead them to be less modest around other girls?

Another thought...In college some of us would wear our underwear with a half slip pulled up under our arms while we did our hair and makeup. I remember our dorm mom asked us not to do this and encouraged us not to be immodest around each other. She never explained further. It seemed silly to me at the time since it was "just girls" but I have since thought it may have been to help those who might have been struggling with same sex attraction.

Thank you for this blog. I enjoyed reading the comments on this post and know I will be reading through your archives.

[Ronny]

Daisy said:
"...Something about being so comfortable in showering together bothers me..."

The question that comes to my mind is: Can you please define what that "something" is that bothers you?

Why is it that some people do not see it as an issue, while others do?

[Elin]

Interesting topic. For me it would depend if the girl was still wearing a top or was completely topless - this wasn't quite clear from the original post. If the former I would have no problem with it, indeed I might be one to ask the same thing in that context! I would also have no big problem if a female friend/roommate was changing in front of me, just as I don't have a problem breastfeeding (or watching other women breastfeed) in front of other women. There might be a brief glimpse of nakedness in such situations but it would be quite different from someone hanging around topless/naked for no particular reason. In that situation I would wonder what they were trying to prove.

There is indeed a distinction between privacy (or modesty in front of the same sex) and modesty in front of the opposite sex. I have had Muslim friends who will take off their hijabs when it's "just girls" (even if the other girls aren't Muslim) but also married Orthodox Jewish friends who keep their hats/tichels/etc. on indoors even when there are no men in the house. So either the rationale between the headcoverings is different (privacy vs. modesty before the opposite sex) or these women have different ideas of what level of privacy they prefer in front of other women. I think it is safe to say that women may have quite different ideas of what is appropriate in front of other women even though they may share a very similar commitment to modesty in front of men.

[Luthor Rex]

"The question that comes to my mind is: Can you please define what that "something" is that bothers you?

Why is it that some people do not see it as an issue, while others do? "

Sometimes people only understand things on an intuitive level and because of that can't express the 'why' of their position.

My grandfather was a good example of a man who knew the right things to do but couldn't tell you why.

While on a fishing trip with my cousin (who was very young at the time) he was trying to show my cousin how to put bait on a hook. Ordinary worms were being used (they didn't have fangs or anything) and yet my cousin was afraid and didn't want to do it.

My grandfather eventually got frustrated and did it himself. Later, when the whole family was back together my cousin's mother asked what the big deal was to my grandfather about her son being afraid.

At the time he couldn't explain to her why he thought it was such a big deal. But looking back now, I can see why it was: learning how to deal with fears and difficulties are life skills that the sooner learned the better our lives are.

My grandfather would have never thought to say anything about overcoming our fears because he only knew it on an intuitive level.

I suspect much the same is true with modesty: intuitively someone may know why it's a good idea, but they can't explicitly express why. It seems to me that modesty is a way a woman can convince a man to look at her body that will inspire a sense of reverence in him, rather than lust. (Since men won't have a neutral reaction to most women's bodies.)

Both reverence and lust do put the man in a place of not thinking of the woman as a real person. But I suspect that a man would find it easier to treat a woman like a person if he first saw her as an object of reverence rather than an object of lust.

[Bringing Up Daisy]

I was having a hard time visualizing the shower situation at Daisy’s school so I talked to her again last night. I asked her if it was correct that the girls all showered together and she said; “yes”. I said; “all the girls are running around in there naked?” She looked at me like I was crazy and said: “No grandma, we shower in our suits, then we wrap up in our towels and take our suits off under the towels!” She went on to say that they hold up towels for each other and dress behind them.

I should know by now that I have to ask her things several different ways to get to the real facts! I am very relieved to know that the modesty of these girls is alive and well! I think the "something that was bothering me" was that girls that age usually have a natural privacy or modesty about their bodies. I was trying to understand what was causing them not to and as it turns out they are just as modest as girls have been for years.

[ronny]

Being as those are the facts in Daisy's school, I can only say that I find it lamentable that in our society we are so hung up about these issues.

There comes a point where modesty is transformed into prudishness.

[Viva Nsair]

I'd like to start off by saying that it is quite exhilarating finding other young adults with the same view points as me!

I believe that it is the potential sexual direction that is prevented with modesty whether it be with same sex or different sex. Because God made us the way we are, it is more likely that we will go down a sexual direction with the presence of guys and the lack of modesty. If a girl has pre-planted seeds in her head of sexual desires with the same sex, then she should learn how to be modest around other girls to prevent anything further from happening.
Conclusively, it is important that the individual is as modest as necessary to keep them away from potential problems.

[Jayme]

Modesty is a virtue. If so, it must then needs be the perfection of some always admirable goodness. And an individual can participate in that goodness by degrees. But the abstract virtue is something internal and it can not merely be defined by some external behavior. Talking or not talking about bra's does not necessarily make someone modest or immodest. It may well be that modesty looks different for different people. How that looks for each individual is something only they can determine.

Propriety on the other hand... is only conformity to the societal norms.

[Elisa]

I am from Brazil and right now I´m spending some days with my family. It is spring in october and the weather is getting very hot.

Being in the US for the past 9 years made me more aware about modesty, since, in Brazil, women usually dress in very short skirts/shorts/tops.

But now I see that the reason why women dress like this in Brazil is mostly related to the weather. Here I am trying to wear sleeves and a covered tummy while 89% of the population is wearing spaguetti straps, shorts etc. I am spending my days dressed modestly but feeling hot, sweaty and uncomfortable.

So now I am sure that modesty is mostly related to the way a person cares itself than to what she/he is really wearing. Less emphasis on clothing, more emphasis on behaving!

[Jennifer H]

To be quite honest I'm offended by anyone suggesting that there is something immoral or wrong about girls or women showering "together" in a female shower room.

For starters in grades 7 through 12 we always showered nude after gym and swimming classes. I fail to see what was possibly wrong with that? We were all female, it was a girls locker room, we needed a shower, so we showered. What in the world was wrong with that?

I swim at the local YWCA two nights a week, and I and most of the other women take showers after a swim. Again, what the heck is wrong with that?

My daughters and their female classmates showered after their gym classes in school, (I asked them after reading this thread)are you trying to imply that my daughters were immoral, "Bringing Up Daisy?" My daughters are good Christians, and showering in a female locker room doesn't change that in any way!

I hope that not everyone thinks that it's somehow wrong to shower in a locker room just because it requires one to be nude in a same-sex locker room!

Jennifer

[Hellena Hydrox]

I attend a private school for girls, Saint Tomothy's In Lutherville, Maryland. We have phys ed in the nude when we are scheduled for the pool. Much of it is not swimming but encounter activities. For example we float in the pool while wearing gogles and snorkles. After an hour we stay in the pool and line up and hug the person in front of us. The snorkles allow us to sink under the water which we do.

[Diane]

I have to say that I totally agree with Jennifer H.: there is certainly nothing immodest, immoral or "wrong" with same gender locker/shower room nudity.

In the 1970's, we were required to shower in school after gym class beginning in the 8th grade. There were no private shower stalls; one end of the locker room was an open tiled area with floor drains and about 30 shower heads along the three walls.

I was a very modest girl growing up. Nudity made me uncomfortable. As a teenager, I had never let my twin brother see me naked, and I felt uncomfortable undressing for my annual physical exam even with a female physician. I always wore a modest, but stylish, bathing suit to the beach. So returning to the locker room after that first day of gym class I was terrified that in a few minutes I was going to be required to remove all of my clothing and that 25 other people would see me completely naked.

I suspect that others in my class shared that fear: everyone took a long time undressing in the least revealing way, removing sneakers, socks, t-shirts and shorts in that order, then hesitating in our underwear until the teacher yelled at us to take off our clothes and go to the showers or we'd be late for our next class. So we all pulled off our bras and panties at once and ran naked to the showers. After no more than 30 seconds or so of feeling very exposed (and more than a little awkward as I had reached puberty fairly early and had larger breasts and more pubic hair than most of my peers), all my anxiety about being seen naked was gone and surprisingly I felt completely at ease. I did not feel immodest--I just felt it was not an issue. Maybe it was because all of my classmates were naked as well. (We so quickly adapted to this routine that within a few weeks, ironically, instead of yelling at us for taking too long to undress, the teacher was yelling at us for spending too much time in the showers!!)

After that first day, I never felt that there was anything immodest about undressing with other females and showering together in the nude after gym, swimming, or later, high school or college athletics. Instead, I think those first 30 seconds in the showers with my classmates helped me get rid of a lot of hang-ups, develop a healthy attitude toward my body, toward nudity, as well as toward knowing when modesty was required and when it was not an issue.

[Cheryl]

I agree with a couple of the other ladies. There's nothing wrong with being nude in a locker room. Whenever I was in female locker rooms in Europe I would see women of all ages and sizes nude and there wasn't anything sexual about it. I would see mothers, daughters, sisters and grandmothers relaxing nude in the sauna. I saw and spoke with a 62 year old woman and her 15 year old grand-daughter while both sat nude in the sauna. They conversed with me just the same as anyone would who was fully dressed. Being nude in a women's locker room or sauna with girl-friends can offer a wonderful opportunity for female bonding. And it has nothing to do with sex.

I highly recommend everyone reads the article "Bathing Beauties" by a 15 year old girl named Anna Schnur-Fishman.

I hope that the link I will provide will work, but if it doesn't, then simply google the words "Bathing Beauties Anna Schnur-Fishman" and it will be very easy to find.

Please give your feedback on the article here!

www.utne.com/2005-03-01/bathing-beauties.aspx

[Paul Clutterbuck]

So far no one's put a guy's perspective on this topic. Back in 1983 I was in the boys' locker room after school sports, when I saw the teacher--a real gentleman whom I've always respected--stripped next to me. What was worse was his erection, the first time I'd ever seen one in my life. While I have every respect for the teacher of that year, the image has haunted me so badly that I still fear erections, not least my own. I think there's a need for adult men to be sensitive about exposing their privates to boys, even when there's no suggestion of abuse.

[Barbara Godding]

ladies what are you ? a bunch of prudes there is nothing wrong walking around nube in the dorm. Get a life you biatch