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February 07, 2006



One is not more at fault than the other. It seems like a very silly game. For the boys it was merely a chance to openly gawk at the females. And for the women in some very twisted way it was a chance to be on parade. Perhaps the women felt flattered or competitive as in- I have the best!
Who knows. But I would have thought such games were for junior highschool kids.Hmmm.


Fault is all over the place on that one. But basically, all involved are crass and inane. Their personalities are about as interesting as the nearest rock. They sound like guys who no one really thinks are funny, no one really respects, and people talk behind their back.

But if these doofs do describe the "culture" in this country, that means we don't actually have one.

Reid Madsen

Two problems here. 1) Men who want to reduce women to sex objects. 2) Women who will support that mentality. Equal blame on both sides.

I met my future wife while in college. I new immediately that I had to become a better man to be worthy of her affections. The idea of dragging her down to a lower level, or trying to compromise her standards, never crossed my mind -- for two reasons. 1) If I had tried I would have been flatly rejected. 2) My father would have killed me (not to mention her father!).

A true man will protect the honor and virtues of women, and never try to compromise them away, or violate them.

Every woman should understand that a man who **really** loves her will raise himself to her level to be worthy of her love. That will never happen if she allows herself to be degraded.

Keep up the good work ladies.



Ok - so yes this game is silly, but honestly it is not a big deal. This was a party, right? I am assuming some alcoholic beverages were served, right? Well, in that case you have to expect some level of immaturity and write-it-off. Boys tend to think about these things more than women - I know because I have several guy (boy) friends in their mid-20s. As a girl (woman), I would not be the least offended, but rather find their interest in an inane topic entertaining. I think if our conversations at parties were all of serious nature, well, then life would not be happy or funny or interesting. Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating that we talk about bra sizes at parties, but I am advocating everyone to take a lighter stance on certain topics. If people are offended they should walk away from the conversation - easy as that. The conversation was clearly not "hurting" the parties involved. I don't think anyone is to blame, because in my opinion there is nothing to blame.

christine the skeptic

OK, Modish26, so if it's not a "big deal" can you tell us your real name and cup size, please? I look forward to hearing! Let's take a light stance on these "entertaining" topics.


Sure thing Christine - Name is Luzmarina/34-B...not really too entertaining considering this is a blog, not a party. Again, I am not advocating that people discuss these types of things in general. I just think it is "silly" to be so serious about it - that is it. If this conversation was objectifying women, then it was also reducing men to boob hungry animals - which we know is not true.


Lily: Welcome to college. Unfortunately junior high boys are easily considered mature when compared to the frat boy standard.

Modish: It is that kind of thinking that encourages the juvenile behavior. Society is supposed to set standards to strive for... not to lower oneself too.
Girls who show support for this sort of behavior whether in the spirit of fun or sexual desire, are teaching the boys there is no need for improvement. These are the same girls that get annoyed 6 months down the line when their boyfriend's maturity doesn't get above a middle school mindset. Besides there are plenty of non-derisive ways to have fun.



You are right, not all men are boob hungry animals. But those particular boys are. So I'll hand these boys only your cup size, and see how much you enjoy being mocked and laughed at as you walk by. But even if you'd think it was funny, and perhaps you'd even join in, there is a very good chance that there was a vulnerable girl in the "passer bys" who was not amused by their laughter and their yelling out of her chest size. In fact, she may very well have been hurt. Do you have no concern for that young girl?

In the end, I'd rather call you respectfully by your name. So....

Luzmarina, I hope in love you are able to weed out the "hungry animals" and choose only those who respect your name, and you. In the meantime, I think you might want to take concern of the young girl who might be hurt by the mockery of others. I care not be part of a society that is as coldly disregarding as your opinion reveals our world to be.

Kindness towards a person's smile, an offer of friendship, protecting the heart's of those who pass by us in life...that is apparently not the world you want to be a part of? I prefer that world, to the world which you condone in your remark.

christine the skeptic

OK,and where do you live? Sorry but that's the position the girls at the party were in, I'm not trying to be obnoxious. Lots of girls who would like to be asked out on a real date but instead get quizzed on their breast size do find this to be a big deal. And if you don't, why are you bothered by women who do? Calling other women "silly" for wanting more than you is hardly fair. As for the boob-hungry animals, I'm not a man but I think Reid said it best, above.

christine the skeptic

cmf, when I wrote my other comment yours didn't post yet. I agree with you completely. One followup about your point about the hypothetical hurt girl, it's not a hypothetical. Lily, the original blogger of this post, has already said that she was hurt and offended by this game.


Ok - this clearly got out of control. This has nothing to do with being asked out on a date or finding your soulmate- this was a party - and a party that, in my opinion, was innocous. I might be a little desensitized to things - I live in NYC. But, how many times do I have to say - I am not advocating this behavior, but rather encouraging everyone to not take things as seriously. I agree with, I would say, 95% of what is posted here, but I think it is obnoxious to reprimand me for my opinions. Honestly, it does not bother me what people think of my bosom size. (It might be on the smaller side, but, I like it). I think that it is silly to be so serious. I am not saying that we should not have men respect women and that we should not have men treat women fairly in relationships. I don't think that was the intention of the people who were engaging in the bra size conservation. It was probably a joke (ok - yes it is an assumption since I was not at the party). If Lily talked about the hypothetical girl as a real girl at the party, then I would have not responded as such. But, she flat out judged everyone in the conversation.

I am personally offended by everyone who has attacked me for my opinions. I thought this was a forum for discussion - not a "Only-my-opinion-please, and-please don't-say-anything-that-might-challenge-my opinion-because-I-don't-want-to-hear-it" blog. I am truly sad that Lily was offended, because then most things in this world would be offensive to her - no offense. I think Lily did the right thing, to leave that party and maybe it will be the last time she goes to Blake's house - which is fine - that is her choice. The big picture idea here is to accept a certain level of immaturity (because it will happen not matter how upset you are) and disregard people that we can avoid if possible and to take comments/conversations less seriously.

Victor Lectus

Modish26 -

If this behavior is “not a big deal”, then how many not-a-big-deals does it take to make a "big deal" (maybe it’s the "new" math and I can't calculate it)? And how do you respond to a “big deal” when you see it, assuming you can recognize it as a real “big deal” and not another not-a-big-deal, or for that matter, a REALLY-big-deal? Are you SURE it’s a “big deal”? Could it be just a slightly bigger than normal not-a-big-deal? Perhaps it’s not a “big deal” at all. Then, what do you do if it’s only a “big deal” to you? You might want to not NOT make a big deal out of it, depending on what it is, but ONLY if other people think it’s not a “big-deal” to begin with, in which case I guess it really is “not a big deal” and you’ll just have to “deal” with it yourself. (Am I making too big a deal out of this?)

There are principles of erosion at work that you either don’t see or are purposely ignoring. You’re even willing to project motives to excuse the bad behavior of people you don’t even know!

Expect more and you'll receive it; expect less and you'll get that too!

Wendy Shalit

Wow, I was on the road for just a few days and when I come back, everyone is fighting!

Don't get me wrong: I like a good fight just like anyone, but I don't think we're being entirely fair to our Modish friend here.

Luzmarina has already admitted that she may be "desensitized" from living in New York and I think that's pretty 'big' of her to make that concession. I don't think there is anything to be gained by blaming individual people for not thinking something is a 'big deal'--any more than it is to attack Lily for thinking the original game WAS a big deal.

The larger issue, as we all seem to agree, is about desensitization.

Yesterday I was in a toy store and heard that song about "when I get that sexual feeling"--this is the fourth time I've heard really inappropriate songs in children's stores. What are people thinking? Then I met up with my friend, who saw a girl's "boyfriend" punching her in the subway (in between kisses), and she was saying that no one knew what to do.

I think there is a larger issue here of boundaries and appropriate behavior, and how do we encourage men to act better if the women don't necessarily realize that they deserve better?

May I make a suggestion that we refocus the discussion on the more general issue, instead of on Lily vs. Modish, because that thread seems to be going nowhere, fast.

Would be interested to hear everyone's thoughts.


There was just an article on Cnn.com yesterday about teenage abusive relationships, I'll try to find it.


Mr. Big- Ok..i am at work, so, I really can not take the time to write everything I would like. But, in essence, repression leads to "big-deal" issues, from some of the people I know. And, I think we are all intelligent enough to separate the big deals from the not so big deals. I really don't understand the level of defensiveness that I have encountered in this discussion. I feel that the society you would like to live in is sheltered and way too serious. I do not believe in the so called snow-ball effect that you speak of. If we trust and have faith in others, we would hope that a bra-size conversation would not lead to a rape or mistreatment in a relationship. It is about accepting others and not judging others for having inane conversations. If we have a negative outlook on everthing that is said, beliveing that it would perpertuate deviant behavior, well that is not the society in which I would like to live. I had open conversations with my family about topics that would certainly be considered offensive to those who have responded to me. But, I know that my exposure to these topics/issues/conversations have helped shape my conservative views, my tolerance of others, and my understanding that immaturity is not necessarily a bad thing, (within certain boundaries of course). I don't expect less, except maybe less seriousness. And, I would certainly expect more tolerance from intelligent and conservative people like yourselves.


I have to say I agree with Modish. Drunken joking around at what is supposed to be a party is very different from walking down the street and having some guy stick his head out the window and yell at me to ask if I will perform oral sex on him.

I've had both happen. It depends on context and intent, IMO. If the females there have a choice as to whether or not to participate or view the activity, then all the better. I can leave a party or a room if I don't like it -- if I am walking down the street minding my own beezwax and am assaulted by some unwelcome inappropriate commentary, that is not ok, bc I am not there to amuse you or anyone else, buddy.

I also think it's a function of age -- when I was in my early 20's that is how males my age acted. I was very stringent about being treated as a "whole person" and super serious. That did save me from a lot of grief and heartache, as the truly immature males completely ignored me and turned their sights on easier prey. I also think it truly helped me develop part of myself that might have been stunted otherwise.

But now I have hit my later 30's and I no longer feel like I have to "prove" that I am a "whole person" to anyone, whether in the way I dress, how I speak, or what activities I engage in. My best girl pal and I were discussing this on her 38th birthday -- how we have gotten much sillier and much less uptight as we have aged. In our youth we were very concerned with setting up our lives for the long haul, meeting potential husbands/fathers of our children, having children, buying homes, setting up careers, discovering who we wanted to be. We were very serious all the time and took easy offense at any hint we were not taken similarly seriously by those around us.

Now we are older. We have our own money, kids are out of diapers and self sufficient, we have our homes and can pay the mortgage, and we know there are at least a few males out there who take us seriously. We no longer feel we have to constantly "prove" that we are serious people -- and by "prove it" I also mean prove it *to ourselves*.

So now we like to take a break from all that and be goofy. Yes I post pics of my cleavage in my blog, and they are good pics so if you want to slaver over them be my guest. You cna try to objectify me all you want, but frankly, it just won't work. I will never feel objectified because I *know* I am whole.

One of the things I have noticed about myself as I have gotten older too is that I kind of "got stuck" in the whole I'm-so-serious mode. I'm not just a brain, you know. I don't just have intelligence and compassion and heart. I have sexuality as well. And I can't be treated as a "whole person" nor feel like one as long as I have subsumed and stifled that entire part of myself.

So, since I have got the "I'm serious and smart and capable" thing down, now, in my late 30's I find myself embracing and expressing my sexuality in all kinds of fun ways. And as this part of me, that I ignored and suppressed for decades, is slowly nutured and comes out into the sun, I feel my whole self blossoming in a way I never have before. Perhaps bc the last time anything in me blossomed it was actually in a time in my life when everythign was developing and changing all at once, so I didn't notice. Now there is a big contrast.

Oh and my own disclaimer is that I also live in a large urban city. And let me point out, once again, I am not a 14-18-20 yr old "girl" but a fully adult woman. So if I want to go get a heart tatooed on my bottom (my plans for this spring) to give some lucky adventurer a nice surprise should he come strolling that-a way, it's not the same thing as a 16 yr old getting a stripper tatoo before she has even discovered who she is apart from her body.

I have enjoyed stumbling across this site bc honestly I think voices from both sides of the realm need to be heard. I am so sick and tired of hearing nothing but how I am supposed to sleep with some guy on the first date, before I even get to know him or have even found out if he is a player or real. Like I am some crazy woman because I actually want to decide for myself if or when I will proceeed to that activity.

At the same time, if I decide that first date is so wonderful I allow myself to be swept away, it doesn't mean I have allowed myself to be objectified and manipulated.

Liz Neville

Hi all-- I've yet to weigh in but I did read Lily's first post with sympathy and agreement. I think I understand why Modish's first comment was so poorly received. For those of us in this game for our children, trying to help these amazing little beings to grow up healthy, emotionally and otherwise, the slop in the culture is more threatening. WE may be all right-- we've had a decent raising and have manged to evade the temptations and bad choices that can so easily ruin lives. But we look around and see this awful culture creeping in on us all around, from the music in kids' stores as Wendy noted, to garbage like the book noted in Mary's last post and we get VERY sensitized to what we are up against. (For the record, even if the "Rainbow Party" was nothing more than a marketing ploy or the author's fevered imagination, it impacts the culture all the same when it becomes a best seller.)

Therefore the nonsense that Lily described becomes more threatening that Modish's light-and-easy take would reveal. It becomes an acceptance of the coarsening of the culture, not only allowed but embraced by women who have abandoned any semblance of their historical role as social/cultural arbiters. I don't think anyone who disagreed with her wanted to attack her for her opinions-- she's obviously got a very different stake in this culture war than I and others like me. We're just trying to point out that there is VERY much at stake, and that every coarsening furthers another, and the reversal of this trend is exceedingly difficult. Killing the culture by degree may be less obvious, less "objectionable", but we are killing the culture just the same.


Here is the CNN story:


This is a sensitive issue for me becuase when I was in college I was 'one of the guys' and didn't think joking around with them was a big deal, then I got BADLY burned. I would prefer not to go into detail but trust me, women and men are not the same. When we're at the lowest level the women have the most to lose. This is not meant as an attack it is just my perspective.

Wendy Shalit


Thanks for the compliments and we're glad that you're visiting the site. Even though you disagree on some things we hope you continue to voice your views. It makes things much more interesting. Yes, you will definitely find support here for not having to sleep with a man on the first date! (And even the third, should you not be inclined....we're very radical here.)

Modish, I appreciate you adding your perspective as well but I think defensiveness is pretty much to be expected in any discussion. At least we are having the discussion and people are getting exposed to different views. So thank you for that. I agree that tolerance is important but as my friend Rachel always says, "people have to be open-minded in both directions."

I sympathize with where you are coming from but I'm also not sure it's fair to judge Lily's perspective as "sad" just because she is more sensitive than you on this issue (I mean when you wrote that you were "truly sad that Lily was offended, because then most things in this world would be offensive to her").

With all the problems stemming from insensitivity in our society, I would venture to suggest that sensitivity may be a good thing--both for Lily and for society at large.

I suppose the issue we are circling around is this: if we negatively judge others for being "too sensitive," does that stigma contribute to an insensitive society? And if you do insist on negatively judging others for being "too sensitive," then is it fair to be sensitive when others judge you for judging the sensitive? Perhaps. But in that case, we would all seem to be in agreement that sensitivity is good.

I feel like there is a good Gilbert & Sullivan song in all this. . . .


I am a Gilbert and Sullivan fan. We are the very models of postmodern sensitive generals?


With an insensitive tread,
Upon eachother we steal;
It's judgement we dread,
and respect we want to feel.
But there's no sensitivity at all,
We never say a sensitive word,
Even a voice's sweet-soft call
Cannot be at all heard –

--(inspired by The Pirates of Penzance)

Wendy Shalit

Eve, you totally crack me up.

Well, I think that pretty much sums it up.

Where did Lily go by the way? If she hasn't checked the blog lately she's going to be
in for a bit of a shock.

Victor Lectus

Modish –
I’m sorry you were put off by my “big-deal” wordplay; that was not my intent. I can assure you that I wrote it with less seriousness than that with which you read it, but I’m glad to have your input as it does broaden the discussion.

My goal was to highlight how small disregards become larger over time. For the sake of disclosure, I can tell you I played the same game (in high school), but NEVER when one of the girls could hear, and NEVER EVER with voluntary participation. To be overheard would have been embarrassing - - to be confronted by the girl, mortified! That’s the difference, the erosion, and it wasn’t that long ago (although longer than I like to admit).

I appreciate and share your hopeful attitude, and you are right to look for the best in people and society. However I hold that the described behavior was more than just qualified immaturity, that there are actions that undeniably drag down a culture, and that these actions should be judged for what they are and not accepted for the sake of a social construct or vogue. Herein I think lies our disagreement.

Ayn Rand said “…a man's sexual choice is the result and the sum of his fundamental convictions. Tell me what a man finds sexually attractive and I will tell you his entire philosophy of life. Show me the woman he sleeps with and I will tell you his valuation of himself.”

I would extend this to how a man treats a woman in general.


I am not sure what has gotten into me, some kind of G&S bug, but I can't help it; here is another one:

"A wandering modest-girl I
A thing of faith and hope,
Of trust, fun, and beauty-soap,
And dreamy optimistic sighs!
My capacity to love goes deep
As I learn how and when to say no
And as my self-esteem grows
I feel ready to leap!
I feel ready to leap!"

(Sing to the tune of Nankipoo’s “Wandering Minstrel” in The Mikado)

Spinal Tap


The "Wandering Minstrel" is from "The Mikado"?

I thought it was Van Johnson on the old Batman TV series....


Hi all - once again. Well, this discourse has certainly been entertaining for me. I guess we can all agree to disagree. But, I am certainly sensitive to a person's sensitivity. And, I am not judging anyone for having sensitive views or conservative views. Rather, I am advocating that we not judge others who engage in benign behavior or conversation. I understand that you might not think this is benign, but it wasn't a high school conversation, it was a conversation among consenting adults who were not surrounded by children or imposing their discussion on conservative/modest people. Now, as for the comment made by Victor, I am slightly confused. Are you saying that by having a woman agree to participate in these conversations that it makes that woman less of a person? Are you saying that it is ok for men to talk about a woman's bra size behind her back rather than in person? Well, I would so much rather prefer to be part of those conversations. I would not want men looking at me speculating behind my back. I would rather talk to them about it. And, as Victor admitted, men will, no matter what, talk about bosoms, bra sizes, and a slew of other topics that would probably be censored if I mentioned them. I don't think men respect women any less for talking about sexually related topics with them (except maybe men like Victor) and if you believe that a woman is less of a person because she publicly revealed her bra size to people of the opposite sex, well, then I guess I am of zero value because I have had significantly more immodest conversations with men. But, in my reality, I know that my male counterparts have the utmost respect for me and see me as a very mature, traditional, religious and conservative woman. I guess the difference between me and others is that though I have conservative/religious views, I am not, by your definition, modest. I think it comes down to one's personality. Though I don't see myself as a hyper-sexual person, I think a certain amount of open discussion on sexual topics is healthy for society (though I don't see bra sizes as a sexual topic). It is very hard to draw boundaries and we certainly will not be able to stop others from expressing their immodest views in innane conversations. Again, I was advocating tolerance, because we certainly can't impose our views on society (I personally would not want to because usually it ends up in rebellion anyways)and to live in a world where we constantly play the blame game or get bothered so easily, then that is just not fun. Thanks for letting me procrastinate at work!

Victor Lectus

Does it take a lot of effort to rationalize the conflicting philosophies of religious immodesty?

Yes, we certainly disagree. But now I wonder about your sincerity in not wanting to judge others, because you’re judging me fairly harshly. And you have (summarily?) judged the conversation in question as benign, while judging alternate opinions as overly sensitive. You claim to advocate tolerance, but…..

The problem is that it wasn't a high school conversation. It also wasn’t a high-minded “open discussion on sexual topics” (e.g. STDs, abortion, etc); it was a frat-style how-big-are-your-boobies beer bash. Men don’t play that game, boys do. It’s a childish thing that men outgrow.

And why would you prefer to be part of the conversation? Wouldn’t you prefer not to be speculated about to begin with? You may not see the over-the-shoulder- boulder-holder conversation as sexual, but I’ll bet you the little boys sure do (worse than that, it’s judgmental, as the breasts in questions may be discerned to be of different shapes, sizes, quality, accessibility etc).

The straw-man rhetoricals (“Are you saying…”), exaggerations (“...slew of other topics…) obfuscates the nature of the original conversation. I’ve offered no definition of modesty for you to align yourself with or against, and other than the Atkin’s diet, I don’t know how to make “less of a person”, a point you seem particularly concerned with.

Drawing boundaries is easier than you think…it can be accomplished with a single word (with all rebellious blame-games and bleak societal impositions aside).


Just an observation. I think Modish26 needs to give Victor some credit. He is taking the time to write to help protect the dignity of women--knowing that crass behavior can cause the direct opposite, the degradation of women.

Thanks Victor for your thoughtful remarks – it’s awesome to know there are men out there who have grown out of that phase, and strive for good stuff in this world!

I also like Liz's comment. I obviously have never met her, but I've read her bio and her posts etc. And I look up to people like her.

I do hope for her kind of life--happily married for 17 years, successful corporate career, thoughtful dedicated mom who loves being a mother, loves her husband, works hard for her community, and helps people. I hope someday to have what she has.

However, I definitely don’t want what "Michelle" likes, "being silly" and who next spring will " go get a heart tatooed on my bottom to give some lucky adventurer a nice surprise should he come strolling that-a way."

I'm old enough to know that for Michelle's male "one stop shoppers" whom she finds silly and fun, they could care less about her tatoo heart. They'll just see that tatoo as road sign for easy entry, and they don't care what they do to your heart And then the next morning, or next week, he goes bye bye. Or perhaps you’ve already moved on to show someone else the derriere tattoo. But after all that, you have to just go in for regular STD checks.

Michelle also says " if I decide that first date is so wonderful I allow myself to be swept away, it doesn't mean I have allowed myself to be objectified and manipulated." You've not allowed yourself to be objectified, you just were and you volunteered for it.

Unlike Michelle, I just don’t want a running list of guys who have seen a tattoo, but probably never knew my hopes. They are probably trying to guess my bra size before they take it off, and not listening to a word I say. No thanks.

Wendy Shalit

Cmf: OK, now I am dying to know how old you are since you write that you're "old enough" to know the real intentions of Michelle's "one stop shoppers," yet you are young enough to still hope for Liz's life....I'm just always curious where people are coming from (if you don't mind saying!)

Back to the point...I didn't interpret Michelle as saying that she is as casual about things as you are making her out to be; I thought she was just sometimes into that, other times not, meaning that she's pretty mainstream.

I'm no advocate of tattoos--my personal view being that the body is too precious to scribble on--but if people who get them still want to read the blog, then the more the merrier, as far as I'm concerned.

But I think you are right about Victor, and more appreciation of his perspective is needed.

Modish raises an interesting point about wanting to hear what men are saying to her face.

My perspective is that there were a few stages in the decline of civilization.

Once upon a time, a man would be challenged to a duel if he said anything that questioned a woman's reputation, or if she was referred to in an insulting manner. This was a code of honor among men. Even the implication that you viewed a woman in a disparaging manner reflected on your manhood--even if no women were present.

The first decline was when it became acceptable to refer to women as sex objects among men, but at the same time, there was still a recognition that this was a somewhat less than stellar habit. When speaking to a woman, you still had to treat her as a whole person. Was this merely hypocrisy, or a kind of backwards nod to idealism? I guess it depends on your perspective.

I agree with Victor that this stage, while by no means ideal, was much better than our contemporary one where the women participate in their debasement under the guise of liberation. Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't think that he was idealizing this state of affairs, just noting that the situation nowadays is far worse.

I can certainly sympathize with Modish's desire to know what the guys are saying, and to 'play cool' and hear it to your face, but I still think it's much better to take the high road and try (hard as it may be) to maintain your dignity. At least then there is the hope that there are men out there--like Victor and Reid--who will eventually appreciate that.

Whereas if the women give up, hope for something better dies too.

Liz Neville

Hi again-- boy, I wonder if Lily knew what she was plunging us all into when she wrote this piece! It's been educational, to say the least. I wanted to throw out one more possiblility for Modish (and others who agree with her on this) not so much minding the "silly" bra-size speculation-- does it give women another confirmation to themselves that men really are silly things, lapping at the trough like cute little piggies, and therefore inferior, even pitiable? Just a possibility.

And to cmf, thank you-- I consider your comment to be the highest praise.

Liz Neville

And one more thing-- I also say three cheers for men like Victor and Reid, and our old friend Dean!


I'm old to have suffered through a string of men who are the type that Michelle seems to eager to try because her kids are finally out of diapers...I'd warn her to keep her tattoo hidden until ONE worthy guy comes along. I was actually referring to a comment she made on another post--where she seems excited to explore her sexuality with wandering adventurers, and was willing to be swept off her feet for a fling on the first date. So I wish her luck. But I warn anyone who thinks casual sex is fun and silly (read her other comment) -- most women who do find themselves spit out of that dating spinner in not so happy a state.

I'm also young enough to have hope for at least a little bit of love and at this point I'll probably be 90 years old before that happens. But with men like Victor, Reid, Dean, around we might be able to reclaim dignity as women--at least the men visiting this site are willing to defend it!

Sadly, I think sometimes women are our worst enemy--sorry to say it so harshly. If they think I'm harsh they ought to read the comment on "sex charades" made by the dear mother who wrote about her daughter's horrible experience. I burst into tears after reading it, and went to my room and cried. Why? Because the crassness that some women want, is the same thing that hurt me, hurt her daughter--when we turn a blind eye to crass behavior of men, that's what we get. Really...I don't care to be part of a world where women think disgusting men are benign. It isn't benign. It is crass, damaging, and in the end leads to violence.

Michelle and Modish26 can just count themselves in the pool of gratefully naive.

Merav Levy

Very interesting discussion. Thank you Lily.

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